Busted at the border

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Re: Busted at the border

Postby Jamster » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:55 pm

I totally agree with sustainable use. If you look at the sheer number of animals killed on the roads, sustainable harvesting be viable. If populations are able to cope with DORs they should be able to cope with a sustainable harvesting program. A friend of mine showed me photos of dead P. sebae that they had found on the road, they found a good dozen in a couple of days. This would also eliminate the possibility of certain people gaining large sums of money for poached animals because the demand for them will shrink as they will be readily available.

However I think that harvesting permits should have to be bought, in the same way that fishing permits are bought. Therefore, if you are approached while herping or with animals in possession you can present a valid "herping license".

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Re: Busted at the border

Postby Westley Price » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:00 pm

The only way this type of sustainable harvesting would have limited effect on the wild populations of snakes is that if the harvesting were limited to roads.

I agree that snakes/reptiles taken from roads would have limited or no effect on the wild populations, but imagine someone walking into the bush and decimating a small population of Bitis inornata or B. atropos. That just wouldn't work as a group of "collectors" can wipe out an entire colony in a weekend.

So the entire system of sustainable collecting would need to be a bit more controlled where you can only collect a certain number and only from a certain spot/road and when you apply, you have to mention the number of animals you intend to collect, the sexes and the locality which you plan to collect from and then only can Natcon make an educated decision on whether they would grant the permit or not.

One doesn't actually realize the amount of planning that goes into a undertaking like this as well as the amount of work to maintain/monitor it.
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby it_bit_me » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:52 pm

It would be easier to pick species in demand and pick people to breed them. It's an long term solution to poaching.
Another is to ban exports ,it already pisses me off that I have to compete with Germans on what an animal's price is.
If I'm gonna be an old, lonely man, I'm gonna need a thing, you know, a hook, like that guy on the subway who eats his own face. So I figure I'll be Crazy Man with a Snake, y'know. Crazy Snake Man. And I'll get more snakes, call them my babies, kids won't walk past my place, they will run. "Run away from Crazy Snake Man, " they'll shout!”
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby Andrew » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:20 pm

The magistrate asked the NC department rep if he would have given the accused a permit to transport the animals.
The answer was YES.
This without a question was an outright lie :shock:
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby shamroth » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:03 pm

Any system of utilization will be open to abuse in one form or another. If nature conservation could pick specific breeders to work with the animals it would just lead to favouritism and prejudice.

In regard to pricing, you can't expect an animal to be cheaper just because it is indigenous. Their prices relate to demand and if you want the animal you pay what the seller is asking. Obviously the prices will drop as the market becomes saturated but until then where the animal originates from doesn't really play any role.


As for nature conservations comments in court, did no one that was there take that issue up with the magistrate??
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby it_bit_me » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:31 pm

shamroth wrote:Any system of utilization will be open to abuse in one form or another. If nature conservation could pick specific breeders to work with the animals it would just lead to favouritism and prejudice.

Not by all, some would rather be happy that they are available.
If I'm gonna be an old, lonely man, I'm gonna need a thing, you know, a hook, like that guy on the subway who eats his own face. So I figure I'll be Crazy Man with a Snake, y'know. Crazy Snake Man. And I'll get more snakes, call them my babies, kids won't walk past my place, they will run. "Run away from Crazy Snake Man, " they'll shout!”
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby it_bit_me » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:38 pm

shamroth wrote:In regard to pricing, you can't expect an animal to be cheaper just because it is indigenous. Their prices relate to demand and if you want the animal you pay what the seller is asking. Obviously the prices will drop as the market becomes saturated but until then where the animal originates from doesn't really play any role.


Your post doesn't make sense. If the seller wants what Ze Germans are willing to pay why are they for sale in SA. Why even bring it up? It is sommer a zef stunt pulled by the exporters who tell me they are worth this and that overseas.

How do you expect to have an saturated market if they are exported.

Some Fiskii were exported and their price was probably very high. Don't you feel just an bit angry that they weren't bred in SA ?
By the time you see the first price for Fiskii in SA it will probably be the same price they fetch overseas after export prices and airfare is added......
If I'm gonna be an old, lonely man, I'm gonna need a thing, you know, a hook, like that guy on the subway who eats his own face. So I figure I'll be Crazy Man with a Snake, y'know. Crazy Snake Man. And I'll get more snakes, call them my babies, kids won't walk past my place, they will run. "Run away from Crazy Snake Man, " they'll shout!”
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby Hantam » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:34 pm

Andrew wrote:The magistrate asked the NC department rep if he would have given the accused a permit to transport the animals.
The answer was YES.
This without a question was an outright lie :shock:


I just spoke to the NC rep about what happened in court and on this fact the question was if the accused applied would he have gotten a permit and the answer was not yes but there was a possibility that a permit could have been granted. He was not given the chance to explain that only if the accused complied with certain conditions that it could have been granted as the lawyer stopped him before he could complete the rest of the answer. It must be remembered that these snakes were collected in Namibia and was on route to the Western Cape but was hidden in the vehicle with no intent on declaring them at the border. So the NC rep would not have been in a position to issue the guy a permit anyway as it would have been the Namibians and Western Cape that would have had to issue the permits.

Andrew you seen to have been in the court on the day to be able to give so much info on what happened.
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby shamroth » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:01 am

It_bit_me, you can't treat the overseas market and our market as separate. Export is not difficult and anyone can do it if they try. Saturating the demand overseas will have the same general effect as saturating it here.

And in any case most exporters are happy to sell their stock in SA as long as they make the same amount of money. If they can get Rxxx.xx after export costs overseas and you offer them the same they will sell you the animal.
So if you're looking for something specific like Fiskii contact people and make sure that they're aware that you're willing to buy. In the end for them its about profits, not who the snake is sold to.

And compared to other things the prices are not bad at all. Captive bred caudalis start at R1000.00, and as far as I'm concerned no they shouldn't be cheaper than that. Same goes for the other dwarf bitis species, their prices are high but I would pay a few thousand for them long before I pay the prices that something like ball python morphs go for.
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby Andrew » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:07 am

Hantam wrote: …He was not given the chance to …


Yes Hantam agreed. The N.C guy was not given the opportunity to explain but he answered the question with a yes.

The accused and the prosecution came to an agreement were the individual would plead guilty to the original charges. On the court day the NC department decides to throws in a new charge. "Transporting animals in an unprescribed fashion."
As there is no legislated “prescribed” reptile transport method. This was dropped when the defence made a fool out of the persecution. :smt021
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby caveracer » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:02 am

Sory for kind of changing the topic but wat are the rule's regarding the colection of indigenous reptiles for the traditional medicne trade? Do they need permits? Are the people who "care" aware of the tonage of animals being killed? Im not trying to be a ..... I just realy want to know.
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby froot » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:09 am

At the moment the law only applies to the easy targets.
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby CarlaSmit87 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:44 am

NC Natcon just contacted me that they are coming for inspection next week. Wonder if it is because of my comment earlier in the post.....
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Re: Busted at the border

Postby gekosin » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:51 am

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Re: Busted at the border

Postby Andrew » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:30 pm

CarlaSmit87 wrote:NC Natcon just contacted me that they are coming for inspection next week. Wonder if it is because of my comment earlier in the post.....


So you will be talking with Leon Muller. Give us feed-back on the questions. In KZN they are asking keepers who gave them what? :roll:
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