Most venomous snake on the planet

This section is for debates, Quizzes and Competitions. Please keep the debates clean, no name calling, etc. Have fun!
Check back often to see the latest Competitions and progress thereof.

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby Lamprophis » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:42 am

For interest sake: The same source lists the 10 most venomous species of terrestrial snakes on the planet as follows (10-1; with Nr. 1 being the most venomous):

10 Bothrops jarararcussu - Jarararcussu
9 Notechis scutatus - Tiger snake
8 Bungarus multicinctus - Multi-banded Krait
7 Bothrops asper - Yellow-jawed Tommygoff (Fer-de-Lance)
6 Dendroaspis polylepis - Black Mamba
5 Vipera russellii - Russell's Viper
4 Ophiophagus hannah - King Cobra
3 Naja naja philippinensis - Philippine Cobra
2 Bungarus caeruleus - Common Krait
1 Oxyuranus micropidotus - Western or Inland Taipan (Fierce snake)

Geez - If the Black Mamba is only sixth on the list it is scary to think of the potency of those from 1-5
User avatar
Lamprophis
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby Pythonodipsas » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:55 am

Yeah is quite hectic - im surprise the Mojave Rattler (Crotalus scuttellatus) doesn't feature in that list.
`
If you wanna find out what's behind these cold eyes, you'll just have to claw your way through this disguise.
Roger Waters & David Gilmour - 1979
User avatar
Pythonodipsas
SAReptiles Techie
 
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:32 pm
Location: Ramsgate, KZN

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby Lamprophis » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:08 pm

Yeah...and the Boomslang, Monocled cobra, Eastern Brown snake, Saw-scaled viper. The list of "non-featuring' species are endless and very surprising.
User avatar
Lamprophis
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby gaboon69 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:56 pm

What happened to Pseudonaja textilis?
Ophiophagus hannah (and Lachesis) has a surprisingly low LD50 so scratch that from you top 10.
My favourite on your list is the B. asper/Terciopelo.
Those who dwell among the beauties and mysteries of the earth are never alone or weary of life ~
Rachel Carson
User avatar
gaboon69
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:51 pm
Location: Gauteng my deng

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby armata » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:07 pm

If you take drop for drop then its quite meaningless as volume is everything. A king cobra can knock an elephant down in four hours, Macrovipera lebetina obtusa can do same for a camel.

However, some snakes do not need to inject very much e.g. boomslang.

So if you revised the list as those snakes most likely to cause fatality without treatment, maybe somewhat different.
' I get my kicks on Route 62 '
User avatar
armata
SA Reptiles Honorary Member
 
Posts: 2986
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: Oudtshoorn, Western Cape

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby Lamprophis » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:23 pm

I think the list refers to drop by drop toxicity, in which case you are quite correct armata. Here is a similar list with regards to "most deadliest snakes" which I tend to regard a lot more indicative.

1) Fierce snake or Inland Taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus)
2) Australian Brown snake (sic) (I assume this refers to the Eastern Brown) (Pseudonaja textilis)
3) Malayan Krait (Bungarus candidus) (?)
4) Taipan (Oxyuranus scutellatus)
5) Tiger snake (Notechis scutatus)
6) Saw scaled viper (Echis carinatus)
7) Coral snake (Micrurus fulvius)
8) Boomslang (Dispholidus typus)
9) Death Adder (Acanthopis anarcticus)
10) Black Mamba (Dendroaspis polylepis)
11) Green Mamba (Dendroaspis angusticeps)
12) Mohave Rattlesnake (Crotalis scutulatus)

Strangely, no Russell's viper, Common Krait or Fer-de-Lance on this list!) Maybe the lists should be combined into a Top 20 to give a more fair indication ?!
Yet, this is even more scary - Black Mamba only at #10?
User avatar
Lamprophis
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby BushSnake » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:23 pm

I wonder what criteria they use to draw up these lists (I suspect a lot of thumb sucking...). The problem I can see is that you can't quantify bad behaviour, or abundance. If you based this list solely on the number of fatalities per year, then you'll probably see puff adders and Russel's vipers high up on the list, and if you consider behaviour, then I suspect the mamba may perform a little bit better...

How does the gaboon adder compare to lets say saw-scaled vipers or death adders when it comes to drop for drop strength?
We must remember that a photograph can hold just as much as we put into it, and no one has ever approached the full possibilities of the medium - Ansel Adams
User avatar
BushSnake
SA Reptiles Honorary Member
 
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:18 pm
Location: Johannesburg... and all over SA

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby mgiddings » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:46 pm

I must say I am surprised the green mamba made that list?
"Well, if you spend enough time in the field you will spot special things"-Tony Phelps
User avatar
mgiddings
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 1187
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:52 pm
Location: Pretoria

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby armata » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:07 pm

And what about my near neighbours - Cape cobra??
' I get my kicks on Route 62 '
User avatar
armata
SA Reptiles Honorary Member
 
Posts: 2986
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: Oudtshoorn, Western Cape

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby WW » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:29 pm

Most of these lists are a load of tosh. Really, there can be no answer to the question about "the most venomous snake in the world", as there are so many different ways of answering that.

Probably the best compilation of LD50 values (drop-for-drop toxicity) is by Bryan Fry at: http://www.venomdoc.com/LD50/LD50men.html

However, if you are interested in how dangerous that makes a species, LD50 figures are a complete waste of time. There are several reasons for that:

1. Different species can differ hugely in their sensitivity or resistance to a venom. Some wild snake prey items have phenomenal resistance (there is a species of spiny mouse in Israel that can survive a bite by Echis coloratus that would put a human in ICU), others very little. A spectacular human-related example is the Australian funnel-web spider, which is very highly toxic to humans (there have been a number of fatalities from bites), and yet most other mammals laugh at it. The differences between species can be thousandfold! You cannot extrapolate from one test animal to another.

2. There is no such thing as THE LD50 for a snake species. Snake venom composition is infinitely variable at all levels (between species, between different populations of one species, between individuals within the population, and even within individuals through their lifetime). Even if you take two individuals from the same population in one day, one may have a mouse LD50 that is several times higher or lower than that of the other (and moreover, the relationship may be the other way round if you were to test it on something other than a mouse). So, in a nutshell, when you read an LD50 figure for a snake species, the only thing that tells you is the LD50 of that particular pool of venoms from those particular snakes on 20g white mice. Nothing more.

3. You need to think whether you are interested in intravenous, subcutaneous, intramuscular or intraperitoneal toxicity - the results can differ by several orders of magnitude - e.g. vipers usually look pretty lame s.c. but a lot more impressive i.v., but s.c. is probably more representative of what happens in a bite.

4. Are you interested in "most venomous drop-for-drop" or "most venomous in terms of killing potential" - if it's the latter, you need to look at drop-for-drop lethality AND the venom yield.

SO, overall, LD50s and the perpetual quest for "the most venomous" snake are really unanswerable and a waste of time. Granted, in the absence of other information, the mouse LD50 may give you some sort of very vague hint as to what is likely to be highly dangerous and what isn't, but it is nothing other than the roughest possible guesstimate. And even then... there are plenty of species at the bottom of the table in venomdocs s.c. LD50 list that you do NOT want to get bitten by - Lachesis, Bothrops asper and WDB to name but a few...

The one thing LD50 tests are useful for is testing antivenoms - if you want to know how good an antivenom is at neutralising a venom, then you need to get the baseline lethality of the venom for your test animals first.
patience n. the vice of accepting the unacceptable, thereby encouraging further occurrences
WW
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby Bushviper » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:38 pm

WW and the snakes do not know this. They bite and inject venom and then hope like hell you leave them alone.

Being dead is like being pregnant. Either you are or you are not. Half dead does not count and dead with enough venom left over to kill your whole family in your veins does not make you more dead (or more pregnant).
It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Those who are afraid to ask are ashamed of learning.
User avatar
Bushviper
Founder Member
 
Posts: 17358
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:02 am
Location: Pretoria

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby Lamprophis » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:08 am

According to Fry's website the Night adder has a lower LD50 count than the Western Diamondback rattler. Surely this can not be correct.
User avatar
Lamprophis
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby Bushviper » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:36 am

Lamprophis do you now see why those figures do not mean much.
It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Those who are afraid to ask are ashamed of learning.
User avatar
Bushviper
Founder Member
 
Posts: 17358
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:02 am
Location: Pretoria

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby Lamprophis » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:48 am

For sure
User avatar
Lamprophis
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Most venomous snake on the planet

Postby yoson10 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:34 pm

The ld50 test is a complete joke. I love how people think that venom toxicity tests on mice dirrectly correlates to how toxic that venom would be toward humans . All it does is show how toxic a particular snake is towards mice, not humans or any other animals. The only way to find the true most toxic top ten list of snakes would be to test them on humans which obviously will never happen and rightfully so! Another point to make is that msot of the so called "Most Lethal" australian snakes have small venom yields and small fangs. Australian snakes are overrated! They are definately not more dangerous that indian or african snakes. The only australian snake imho opinion thar lives up to its hype is the taipan[ coastal and inland] all other are so overrated imo. Mice toxicity has nothing to do with human toxcicty and I will tell you from my research the black mamba is definately a top 5 snake for humans, where as the black mamba scores as the 9th most toxic snake to mice.

My top 10 toxic snakes towards on a drop for drop basis towards humans would be roughly
1. Inland Taipan
2. Coastal Taipan
3 Many banded krait
4. Saw scaled viper
5. Black Mamba
6. Indian Krait
7. Sri Lankan Russells Viper
8. Phillipine Cobra
9. Eastern Brown Snake
10. Indian/ Pakistani Russells Viper

Oh course this is just a guess as like I have said we will never know the true top ten most toxic snakes towards humans, as the venom would have to be directly tested on humans for that to be known. Also when making this list I didnt include venom yield or fang length which can be a huge factor. A king cobra is likely less toxic towards humans than a saw scaled viper but injects much more venom which would make the king a far more dangerous snake. In fact if you include venom yield in making your list than the king cobra is easily top 5 because it injects such a large amount of venom.
yoson10
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:40 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Debate, Quiz and Competition Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

cron