Brave ???

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Brave ???

Postby MrG » Mon May 05, 2008 7:58 am

Can we discuss what would be the legal requirements for keeping Venomous reptiles ?
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Postby froot » Mon May 05, 2008 12:25 pm

Not sure what you are asking Mr G, maybe you could clear this up for me. If you are referring to existing requirements then as you know the requirements differ from region to region. Perhaps you are referring to a comparason between what the requirements are, and what they should be, ie whats missing/should not be a requirement.

IMO no matter where you are from, the first requirement is a brain.
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Postby MrG » Mon May 05, 2008 12:37 pm

Lol, Sorry froot, It was for the Western Cape.

The one for Gauteng is pretty clear but I am thinking that they should up the stakes a bit.

It is far to easy for someone to get highly venomous reptiles and keep them in normal cages.
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Postby Snake Charmer » Mon May 05, 2008 12:45 pm

Let alone the fact if some really venomous exotic snakes escape!
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Postby Bushbaby » Mon May 05, 2008 12:59 pm

MrG, Gauteng Nat Con have started doing inspections and they query the cages if they are not suitable. In the past they never ever came out to do an inspection, and just issued the permits.
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Postby MrG » Mon May 05, 2008 1:20 pm

Now thats exellent news.
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Postby armata » Mon May 05, 2008 2:49 pm

I don't have a problem with inspections, why should you if you are doing it right? But I guess there will be quite a few who would resist as such.
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Postby arcadies » Mon May 05, 2008 2:57 pm

in westerm cape keeping PNG taipans requires the same permits as do corns, a transport permit and your bi-yearly captivity permit.
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Postby snake-5 » Mon May 05, 2008 6:02 pm

I would have to say a shift box and know how to use it would be near the top.
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Postby Bushviper » Mon May 05, 2008 6:12 pm

This is all a bit of a training curve. We have to educate the people who do inspections. Recently they queried a permit application for a guy who had applied for mambas which he was going to keep in a pit in his garden and then some he wanted to keep in fish tanks in his garage. They also found out that he was not a member of any association after they had turned down his application in any case.

We have drawn up new guidelines which we will be discussing with Natcon and the inspectors regarding caging. This actually is not within their scope of responsibilities but we would prefer to have them care a little about the welfare of the animals.

Mambas and large cobra will require shift boxes and cages modified to be so that handling is reduced to the bare minimum.

There is still quite a bit to go through with them and this will just be the start. They intend doing surprise inspections to make sure cages are kept clean and water is available etc. Feeding charts etc will become the norm as well.
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Postby Bushbaby » Tue May 06, 2008 8:32 am

Bushviper wrote:Mambas and large cobra will require shift boxes and cages modified to be so that handling is reduced to the bare minimum.


In addition to this I think decent locking systems should also be looked into. I know it's easy to quickly slap on a lock when they do inspections, but as responsible venomous snake keepers, it shoudl be essential.
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Postby werner » Tue May 06, 2008 9:31 am

All this is fine and I am 100% with all on this, but accedents do happen (believe me) If you keep these snakes (mambas & cobras) you must know the risk invoved. If there is let say a cap on the eye of one of the snakes then you have to remove if. We all know there are different save ways of doing this, but the fackt is you need to get very close to the charp end. A trap box or lock on the cage will not help when wanting to remove a cap, or what about when the snakes cr@p in their trap hide, my mambas did that all the time. Then you are forced to remove the snakes out the hide to clean. If you are to affraid to remove the snake you should not keep the snake, but make sure you are experianced to work with that spesific snake, and no matter how experianced you are, or how sucure your cage and room is accedents will happen. Someone once said there is two types that keep venomous, the once that have been tagged and the once that is going to be tagged. Minimize the risk, but now matter how you keep these snakes there is always a risk involved.

Yes Nat Con must inspect before giving permits, but when it comes to bites I think the biggest risk is the people keeping snakes without permits. They make life difficult for us who have all our animals on permit and they are normally the oke that will keep a Mamba in an unsave cage ( for both snake and humans).

I think we must rather help all these okes to get there snakes in suitable cages (with locks and trap hides).
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Postby froot » Tue May 06, 2008 10:41 am

or what about when the snakes cr@p in their trap hide, my mambas did that all the time. Then you are forced to remove the snakes out the hide to clean.


You should not need to handle a snake at all if your shift box enclosure is designed correctly. You need to be able to close off the entrance to the shift box, as well as the shift box itself so that you can safely remove the shift box from the enclosure with the snake inside. This way you can clean with the snake safely secured out of reach.

The primary concern here is stupid people selling deadly snakes to stupid people, this in itself is begging for some sort of regulation. What we can do as a community at this stage is advise others. I don't care if you are shy or don't want to piss people off, if you see people taking unnecessary risks or people keeping deadly animals badly, say something, it may just prevent another topic in the Venom Club.

Dealers that sell deadly snakes to people without the feintest knowledge about their customer's abilities to work these animals obviously do not give a dam about others, the animals or the hobby itself and should be dealt with accordingly.

Let us know how the discussions with Natcon go BV.
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Postby werner » Tue May 06, 2008 10:57 am

Froot, no matter how your shift box is designed or how it looks, the snake will mess in it. The snake does not reconize a nicely designed box and now desides not to cr@p in the box!!!!!

Yes I agree, never sell a snakes to a person that can't handle or control that snake, but what I am saying is no matter how experianced you are there is alway a risk involved.

Then again, maybe people keeping venomous should give their opinion.
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Postby Serpy » Tue May 06, 2008 11:16 am

If your snakes cr@p in their shift boxes you have to clean it correct? Well to do that you safely need to get that box out the cage.. If the snake is out of its box in the cage you can't safely take out that shift box, so what do you do? You need to safely restrain the animal or take it out the cage to get at the box.. Maybe another option would be to have a second shift box in the cage.. But still werner's point about having to handle that snake sometime down the line is very true, especially if it needs medical treatment or help to shed properly..
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