Infuscatus bite

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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby Bushviper » Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:30 pm

WW I have done this on a show I was filming and we used Rinkhals, Puffadder and Snouted cobra venoms. They all caused the blood to remain liquid after 20 minutes in a clean glass vial and the control blood with no venom added had coagulated.

Possibly my "testing" was just a fluke and the blood donor might have taken some anticoagulant (asprin?) before the time, but his control blood did coagulate. You should still have some puffadder venom left over from what I sent you. Try placing this with 5ml of blood in a clean glass vial and see what happens after 20 minutes at room temperature. If you could do with some Echis venom this would also be interesting. Make sure the donor is not a haemophiliac or on blood thinners either.

I have seen some australian venoms cause a jelly blob in a test tube.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby rolandslf » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:39 pm

Phew Heidi, I went ice cold when I read the Topic Heading and who it was posted by. I was expecting the worst, even though this species is not perceived as being lethal.
Thank goodness you are all right.

It just proves that there are no shortcuts, and we can never relax when working within the constraints of our hobby.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby Jen » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:14 pm

Thanks for the info Heidi. Well, I'm stumped - no idea! The only thing I can think of is that the venom developed a liking for one of your nerves (like Berg adders cause anosmia and some venoms cause cranial nerve palsies) Maybe one of your intercostal nerves was affected, and the change in position cause stretching of the nerve. But, this is pure speculation.
Anyway, glad you're doing well.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby WW » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:07 pm

Bushviper wrote:WW I have done this on a show I was filming and we used Rinkhals, Puffadder and Snouted cobra venoms. They all caused the blood to remain liquid after 20 minutes in a clean glass vial and the control blood with no venom added had coagulated.

Possibly my "testing" was just a fluke and the blood donor might have taken some anticoagulant (asprin?) before the time, but his control blood did coagulate. You should still have some puffadder venom left over from what I sent you. Try placing this with 5ml of blood in a clean glass vial and see what happens after 20 minutes at room temperature. If you could do with some Echis venom this would also be interesting. Make sure the donor is not a haemophiliac or on blood thinners either.

I have seen some australian venoms cause a jelly blob in a test tube.



Haven't tried it with puffie venom - I did with Bothrops venom, and it did turn to jelly as described. There are also some genuinely anticoagulant venom toxins that remove platelets etc., and they would have the effect that you describe - there are various species with this function, one being Pseudechis papuanus.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby Bushviper » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:50 pm

WW now you got me thinking. I need a blood donor and I am going to do this again. Will try a variety of venoms just to see what will happen. I dont have Bothrops or Echis at the moment. Dont have Pseudechis either for that matter.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby Bushbaby » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:29 pm

rolandslf, you only have to worry when it's posted in the RIP section ;) haha

Thanks Jen, must've just been a nerve then. Who knows. I'm not going to volunteer to try it again to see what reaction I will have then. lol
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby yoson10 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:28 am

Can anyone tell me about the temperament of the bothrops snakes... Of course their are many many different types of Bothrops...but I have heard from numerous keepers that they are often quite aggressive and difficult to handle often striking with little/or provocation..Of course the general temperament would vary between the different types of Bothrops and even within the same exact species.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby WW » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:47 pm

yoson10 wrote:Can anyone tell me about the temperament of the bothrops snakes... Of course their are many many different types of Bothrops...but I have heard from numerous keepers that they are often quite aggressive and difficult to handle often striking with little/or provocation..Of course the general temperament would vary between the different types of Bothrops and even within the same exact species.


You are in China, right? Think of a large, very annoyed Protobothrops mucrosquamatus. Now double its size, and imagine it high on methamphetamine and with its tail caught in a rat trap. Congratulations, you have met Bothrops asper!

OK, more seriously, temperament varies from species to species and individual to individual. Most are pretty snappy. The stouter species (e.g., B. alternatus, B. neuwiedi) strike extremely fast, and often quite easily. The slenderer species (B. asper, B. atrox, B. moojeni) have the same temper, but are also very agile and athletic and can move around a room with remarkable rapidity striking all the time. When they are coiled up and at rest, they can usually be hooked into another cage/receptacle fairly easily, so long as it is done quickly and smoothly - if you fumble or drop the snake and/or it has time to become annoyed (which takes around 10 seconds in many specimens), then you get fireworks. A seriously annoyed large B. asper, atrox or moojeni is a pretty intimidating sight.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby yoson10 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:13 pm

WW wrote:
yoson10 wrote:Can anyone tell me about the temperament of the bothrops snakes... Of course their are many many different types of Bothrops...but I have heard from numerous keepers that they are often quite aggressive and difficult to handle often striking with little/or provocation..Of course the general temperament would vary between the different types of Bothrops and even within the same exact species.


You are in China, right? Think of a large, very annoyed Protobothrops mucrosquamatus. Now double its size, and imagine it high on methamphetamine and with its tail caught in a rat trap. Congratulations, you have met Bothrops asper!

OK, more seriously, temperament varies from species to species and individual to individual. Most are pretty snappy. The stouter species (e.g., B. alternatus, B. neuwiedi) strike extremely fast, and often quite easily. The slenderer species (B. asper, B. atrox, B. moojeni) have the same temper, but are also very agile and athletic and can move around a room with remarkable rapidity striking all the time. When they are coiled up and at rest, they can usually be hooked into another cage/receptacle fairly easily, so long as it is done quickly and smoothly - if you fumble or drop the snake and/or it has time to become annoyed (which takes around 10 seconds in many specimens), then you get fireworks. A seriously annoyed large B. asper, atrox or moojeni is a pretty intimidating sight.


Thanks... How do you compare them in temperament and agility to say a puff adder?


Also this is crazy bothrops asper can get to huge sizes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1MOPHLwjJE


I have heard of 7.5+ ft female bothrops asper's being caught in the wild in Costa Rica
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby WW » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:54 am

yoson10 wrote:Thanks... How do you compare them in temperament and agility to say a puff adder?


Also this is crazy bothrops asper can get to huge sizes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1MOPHLwjJE


I have heard of 7.5+ ft female bothrops asper's being caught in the wild in Costa Rica


They get to over 8 ft! Scary snakes! The one in the film was of course a long-term captive snake, wild (and warm...) specimens would have been more emphatic in their self-defence.

As to puff adders: no comparison, they are totally different snakes. Bothrops are far more bitey than the vast majority of puff adders I have seen (which is not a huge number compared to many others on this forum, admittedly), and they cover the ground much faster. In terms of speed of movement etc., the slender species like B. asper and B. atrox are more like cobras than like puff adders - but they are far more likely to bite than either of those. Pretty unforgiving snakes, basically.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby Eyelash » Wed May 04, 2011 5:36 pm

Sorry for the late reply guy's...

I'm glad to see you are "all good" Heidi !I'm glad it was not one of your Gaboons !

p.s BV...I have a lot of blood,Echis venom and maybe some Bothrops venom for you aswell haha... ;)
It would make for some interesting viewing...

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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby Snake Charmer » Sat May 07, 2011 12:56 pm

:shock: Glad you're OK, BB!

Take care!
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby Bushbaby » Sat May 07, 2011 1:01 pm

Thanks guys.

My finger is still a bit sore when pushing on the bite sight, but other than that, I am A-OK.
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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby toxinologist » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:28 am

vuduman wrote:Hi Bushbaby.Glad you are doing OK,and that it wasn't something worse..
I got bitten once by a cape coral snake as a feeding response.It rushed out from under the paper and got a good bite-even hung on for a bit.
After a few minutes of burning,it swelled a bit.The next day I experienced shortness of breath and sleepiness.
But by the third day I was healthy as a horse again. I am allergic to neurotoxic venom.

I added a few dry crystals of green mamba venom to about 3ml of my own blood as an experiment to see if it will coagulate. Well,in about 5minutes the blood turned to a solid clump of jelly.
To my knowledge-it's only suppose to coagulate with cytotoxic venoms. My point is,maybe the Coral snake also has particles in the venom that can make blood coagulate like that instead of thinning it? Or has it got something to do with the fact that I am allergic?


Whole blood in a clean glass tube DOES clot in about 5 minutes in the ABSENCE of procoagulant toxins. What you observed was a LACK of procoagulant activity by green mamba venom. On the other hand if you had looked at a sample of blood from a patient bitten by Echis ocellatus ... the loss of clotting proteins due to effects of the procoagulant in their venom would have meant that even after 24 hours the blood would have been unclotted.

This is the whole basis for the 20 minute whole blood clotting test (20WBCT) which is a fundamental clincial assessment test in snakebite. Place 2 ml of venous blood in a clean dry tube and leave it to stand at room temperature for 20 minutes, then invert the tube once. If the blood is clotted the test is NEGATIVE for non-clotting blood. If the blood runs like water, the test is POSITIVE for non-clotting blood, and in the case of a patient with a history of suspected snakebite, this is an ABSOLUTE indication for antivenom.

Cheers


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Re: Infuscatus bite

Postby toxinologist » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:02 am

Bushviper wrote:WW I have done this on a show I was filming and we used Rinkhals, Puffadder and Snouted cobra venoms. They all caused the blood to remain liquid after 20 minutes in a clean glass vial and the control blood with no venom added had coagulated.

Possibly my "testing" was just a fluke and the blood donor might have taken some anticoagulant (asprin?) before the time, but his control blood did coagulate. You should still have some puffadder venom left over from what I sent you. Try placing this with 5ml of blood in a clean glass vial and see what happens after 20 minutes at room temperature. If you could do with some Echis venom this would also be interesting. Make sure the donor is not a haemophiliac or on blood thinners either.

I have seen some australian venoms cause a jelly blob in a test tube.


Adding to my previous post...

Australian snake venom procoagulant convert the zymogen prothrombin (Factor II) to its active form, thrombin (Factor IIa), and the result is the formation of fibrin clots, since thrombin cleaves fibrinogen. As WW explained, in vivo, the body compensates by activating blood factors that break down these fibrin clots resulting in the consumption of blood clotting factors, and an inbalance which results in a failure of the blood to clot. If you put an Australian snake venom, such as taipan or brown snake into a test tube and simply add blood to it, what you will get will actually be accelerated clot formation (due to the prothrombin conversion and fibrin generation), what you won't see is the second part of the mechanism - the breaking down of the clots and the consumption of factors leading to non-clotting blood.

A number of other venoms have blood clotting toxins which work via different pathways, some for example as plasminogen activators, which see plasminogen converted to plasmin which in turn results in hydrolysis of fibrin (which forms the basis for good blood clots), leading to an inability of the blood to clot. Add the venom of Lachesis muta, Cryptelytrops albolabris or Gloydius halys to a few ml of blood in a tube and you might probably not expect to see good clot formation, as all of these species have plasminogen activators in their venoms (among other things). Bitis arietans venom contains some very cool toxins that affect coagulation, including C-type lectins that promote platelet agglutination and arietin which inhibits platelet aggregation presumably by preventing fibrinogen binding to avtivated platelets. Platelets are also important for the formation of good blood clots, so messing with their normal functioning won't help much when it comes time to call on them to help strengthen a clot. There are also some other interesting anti-fibrinolytic proteases described from Bitis arietans venom, as well as thrombin-like toxins which can initiate clot formation, leading to coagulopathy (bleeding). I would expect that outcome of putting puff adder venom in a tube with 2-3 ml of whole blood would be a non-clotting sample.

Cheers


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