Copperheads

Re: Copperheads

Postby bitis87 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:33 am

Ok, then Bv please explain to me if a snouted cobra bit another snouted cobra, why would the invenomated snouted cobra die? How did your copperhead die?

Again generally speaking, snakes are NOT immune to venom - their own or another snake's. If a venomous snake bit its own tail, it would die. If a venomous snake bit another of its own species, the bitten snake would die



If a Snouted Cobra (Naja annulifera) bites another Snoutie than it takes no effect on the snake except of the mechanicall damage of the fangs!
I can tell you that this 100 percent true.Coz my Snoutie bite my other Snoutie on the head and i had to remove her from him.
This was several months ago and my boy is still alive!
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Re: Copperheads

Postby bitis87 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:43 am

That also i had seen on other Snakes not only elapids, also Vipers, Montivipera xanthina also a bite on the head.
The head was swollen for a couple of hours and a little bit of bleeding but the snake survived it without any long term damages.
I also saw a big Puff adder that was so crazy as it get touched with the snakehook it flips around and take a big bite at its back.As you can imagine...
... its still alive!
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Herpetologist » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:54 am

bitis87 wrote:
Ok, then Bv please explain to me if a snouted cobra bit another snouted cobra, why would the invenomated snouted cobra die? How did your copperhead die?

Again generally speaking, snakes are NOT immune to venom - their own or another snake's. If a venomous snake bit its own tail, it would die. If a venomous snake bit another of its own species, the bitten snake would die



If a Snouted Cobra (Naja annulifera) bites another Snoutie than it takes no effect on the snake except of the mechanical damage of the fangs!
I can tell you that this 100 percent true.Coz my Snoutie bite my other Snoutie on the head and i had to remove her from him.
This was several months ago and my boy is still alive!


So you are telling me if I take a syringe full of snouted venom and inject it into another snouted cobra, the injected snouted cobra would survive? I need to see it to believe it.

Ok then, what about if only cannibalistic snakes were immune to their own venom, cuz what Bv said he has seen puffies, horned adders etc bite themselves and die, now those snakes are commonly not cannibalistic snakes, where snouted cobras, forest cobras etc are?

Really not trying to argue, jut want the correct answer.This really has to be scientifically a proved and tested!!

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Re: Copperheads

Postby Herpetologist » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:55 am

We cant really say.
I always keep a supply of stimulant handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy.

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Re: Copperheads

Postby Westley Price » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:58 am

I've seen numerous adders (cornuta, caudalis etc) bite each other and survive.

I'm pretty sure they are immune to a certain amount of their own venom, but you can't go and inject 100ml of venom into a snake and expect it to survive.

Unless they puncture a vital organ, I'm pretty sure they'll survive a bite from their own species even if it is not a dry bite.
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Herpetologist » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:40 am

Please guys go a search it on the web and check your results, then post here again.

Thanx D
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Westley Price » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:19 am

I'm not making these statements from book-read knowledge, but from experience so chances are I'm wrong.

Although, from what I have read there is a lot of dispute about the topic and there is evidence to back both sides of the arguement.

I know Ray Hoser is not a popular guy, but he has published a few papers where he said species that display combat during mating season have immunity against the venom of their own species as well as the venom of similar species.
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Herpetologist » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:03 pm

I read in encyclopedias that cannibalistic snakes are immune and non- cannibalistic snakes are generally not immune.If this is false or true I'm not sure but this is how I think about it...........
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Westley Price » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:35 pm

I cleaned up this topic.

There's no need for petty bickering.

Please keep to the topic at hand without attcking each other.
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Wolf777 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:09 pm

Here is something i've been wondering about for a while and this site is probably where i'll get my best answer, so here it goes: What type of cells are found in the venom glands themselves, what are they made up from in order not to get affected by and be able to hold the venom?
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Re: Copperheads

Postby NPR » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:23 am

I have a pair of puff adders, they are fully grown and large! the male latched onto the females head a while ago, the fang went in just above the eye on the right side. i honestly thought it was tickets for her. she swelled up a lot, but after a week it went down and she is back to normal. ot was not a dry bite, because i could see spots of venom at the bite site.
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Bushviper » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:30 pm

About a year ago I saw a female puff adder bite a male puff adder in the head. He started twisting and rolling within about 3 minutes. He died during the night. I also have a female gaboon in the fridge that was bitten in the body by the male and also did not last the night. The owner tried keeping the snake warm and quiet but it still died.

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Re: Copperheads

Postby Smeegle » Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:23 am

bitis87 wrote:If a Snouted Cobra (Naja annulifera) bites another Snoutie than it takes no effect on the snake except of the mechanicall damage of the fangs!
I can tell you that this 100 percent true.Coz my Snoutie bite my other Snoutie on the head and i had to remove her from him.
This was several months ago and my boy is still alive!


In my own personal experience I can say that I agree with this 100%

I bought an adult pair of N. pallida a while ago and they were supplied together in a tub. When I later separated them, they seemed to go into feeding mode and the huge male bit the female just below the head and hung on. Eventually I also had to pull them apart. There were puncture marks and copious amounts of venom on the female.

Anyway, she suffered no ill effects at all and almost two years later they are both still in perfect condition and have since produced 17 babies.
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Ryuu » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:04 pm

Taken From Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_venom

Immunity
Among snakes

The question whether individual snakes are immune to their own venom is not yet definitely settled, though there is a known example of a cobra which self-envenomated, resulting in a large abscess requiring surgical intervention but showing none of the other effects that would have proven rapidly lethal in prey species or humans.[12] Furthermore, certain harmless species, such as the North American Lampropeltis getula and the Brazilian Rhacidelus brazili, are proof against the venom of the crotalines which frequent the same districts, and which they are able to overpower and feed upon. The Tropical Rat Snake, Spilotes variabilis, is the enemy of the Fer-de-lance in St. Lucia, and it is said[by whom?] that in their encounters the Cribo is invariably the victor. Repeated experiments have shown the European Common Snake, Tropidonotus natrix, not to be affected by the bite of Vipera berus and Vipera aspis, this being due to the presence, in the blood of the harmless snake, of toxic principles secreted by the parotid and labial glands, and analogous to those of the venom of these vipers. Several North American species of Rat snakes as well as King snakes have proven to be immune or highly resistant to the venom of Rattle snake species.




There’s also another thing to consider.. Venom is designed to kill certain types of animals Faster then Others. So venom Reacts Differently Based on the Physiology of the animal in question. I would take a guess and say Animals that Prey on Lizards and Other snakes would be considered more harmful towards reptilians.. Just thinking..
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Re: Copperheads

Postby Jamster » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:50 pm

I dont like reffering to anything from wikipedia. Usefull maybe, but never to be taken as gospel.

There are many different variables here that need to be taken into acount. Size and health of the snakes in question. The amount of venom injected. Yes, you may be able to see where the fangs enter but you don't know whats going on inside the snake. A few millimetres could be the difference between a burst lung or slight swelling.

In my experience I have seen puffies bitten on the head, W diamondbacks bitten on the head, gaboons bitten on the head and back, snouties bitten several times as well as forests biting eachother. Mozam spitters, snouties and capies all bite themselves and not one of these animals has ever died. Maybe swelling, twitching or irritability, but never death.

As I said, if these snakes had been bitten in perhaps the brain, the heart or the lung the result might have been different. Every bite except the self inflicted ones were feeding response and a healthy dose of venom was injected.
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