Bitis gabonica venom potency?

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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby EkSkynHeilig » Wed May 27, 2009 6:59 am

Tryan,
You should do this research before acquiring a snake.
But better late that never,
I'm Quoting out of Johan Marais' book , A Complete Guide to the snakes of Southern Africa:

The POTENTLY cytotoxic venom is comparable with that of the Puff Adder, but much larger quantities may be injected in a single bite. A full bite from a Gaboon Adder will result in alarming symptoms and early death unless the victim is treated promptly with antivenom. The victim must be treated for shock immedately. Symptoms may include sever pain, swelling and necrosis.


It's better that you asked than to not be sure, but nect time, be sure about everything before purchasing a snake.
Although you have some experience in keeping and handling venomous, this snake should be considered VERY dangerous.

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D
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Loslappie » Wed May 27, 2009 7:20 am

Ive seen the size of the fangs on these snakes, its truly impressive and scary at the same time :shock: While I would like them and Ive been handling puff adders for a while, Im still not comfortable to get myself one.
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Beno » Wed May 27, 2009 8:41 am

Is there any difference between the venom of the two subspecies?
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby dendroaspis » Wed May 27, 2009 10:24 am

Well, one is potentially fatal and the other one will kill you :D :D
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Chantel » Fri May 29, 2009 5:50 am

Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Post by Chantel on Wed May 27, 2009 6:01 am
You DONT want to get bitten by a Gaboon! My first bite was an adult gaboon in 1976. I was very lucky. Full bite with both fangs. I was unconscious in about 10 minutes and my heart stopped twice on the way to hospital. Luckily I had a friend whos neighbour was a nurse and he brought her straight over. I was already unconscious at that stage. She got my heart going and kept me breathing all the way to hospital. 11 ampoules of serum and 6 days in ICU and all the necrosis cut out of my thumb which took about a year to heal up and Im still here!!
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby gaboon69 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:45 pm

Now thats a story and a half...glad you lived to tell!
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Lachesis mutus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:53 am

The venom of Bitis gabonica is less toxic than that of Bitis arietans, Arietans is considered to have the most potent venom of all the Bitis species.

The thing with Gaboon's is the yeald and the composition of the venom and how deep it is deposited, there is no effective first aid except to stay calm etc..

Here is some of the symptoms, I think you will find it a bit more accurate

Rapid and conspicuous swelling, intense pain, severe shock and local blistering. Other symptoms may include uncoordinated movements, defecation, urination, swelling of the tongue and eyelids, convulsions and unconsciousness. Blistering, bruising and necrosis may be extensive. There may be sudden hypotension, heart damage and dyspnoea. The blood may become incoagulable with internal bleeding that may lead to haematuria and haematemesis. Local tissue damage may require surgical excision and possibly amputation. Healing may be slow and fatalities are not uncommon.

If you have the resources to keep a Gaboon I suggest you keep antivenin as well say 25 ampules of it.
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby deleray » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:34 am

The thing with Gaboon's is the yeald and the composition of the venom and how deep it is deposited, there is no effective first aid except to stay calm etc..


I don't really agree with that. There are specific first aid procedures for snakebite to slow down the spread of the venom and deal with the potential of the patient going into shock prior to getting to a hospital etc. Staying calm is unlikely in any case, unless you are Bill Haast or similar!

I am interested in your nickname - Lachesis Mutus? At first I thought it was mispelled as I know only of Lachesis Muta. But a search turned up references to a Homeopathic Medicine referred to as Lachesis Mutus.

They sell it as having numerous benefits to the body. My question is would the enzyme not be broken down by our stomach acids and be useless? Obviously if injected there would be an effect? But to ingest a severely diluted form of the venom would surely have no effects? Similar to snake oil really?
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Smeegle » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:28 pm

Lachesis mutus wrote:Rapid and conspicuous swelling, intense pain, severe shock and local blistering. Other symptoms may include uncoordinated movements, defecation, urination, swelling of the tongue and eyelids, convulsions and unconsciousness. Blistering, bruising and necrosis may be extensive. There may be sudden hypotension, heart damage and dyspnoea. The blood may become incoagulable with internal bleeding that may lead to haematuria and haematemesis. Local tissue damage may require surgical excision and possibly amputation. Healing may be slow and fatalities are not uncommon.


This text is taken from : http://www.africanreptiles-venom.co.za/gaboon_adder.html

Please remember to cite references taken directly from the web, it's always nice if someone wants to read further about the topic. Thanks :D
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Lachesis mutus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:22 pm

Deleray how would one slow down the spread of the venom? with a bandage? The only treatment is antivenin on drip and a lot of it!! No topical or suction treatment will work on these bites the venom is deposited simply to deep and a hell of a lot of it thats where the yeald comes in its just so much venom that you cant do anything about it.

Smeegle , I'm new I registered today so I will keep that in mind as sometimes its quicker to grab something off the web than to type it out, however this was not taken from Mike Perry's page but from Bitis gabonica on Wikipedia, i have found that when it comes to info they are quiet accurate.
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Bushviper » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:20 am

Lachesis mutus wrote:..... but from Bitis gabonica on Wikipedia, i have found that when it comes to info they are quiet accurate.


Wikipedia is not anywhere near accurate and may not be used in any work at any University specifically for that reason.

Pressure bandages if applied correctly will work, however slowing down a cytotoxic venom might not be desirable.

A full bite from a Gaboon viper is far more of a medical emergency than a Puffadder bite. The average yield is what makes this snake far more dangerous than trying to compare one drop of venom with another drop of venom. The rapid onset of symptoms as well as the fact that it has a cardiotoxin would make the Gaboon viper a far more dangerous snake.
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Lachesis mutus » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:55 pm

Well I guess we have different opinions then, If you get bitten by one you can put on a pressure bandage and give that advice to aspiring ''herpers'' if you like.

I did not say that a Puffadder bite is worse, just that they are more toxic than a Gaboon and apparently so is Bitis nasicornis.

I dont think one can say a Gaboon is ''more dangerous'' than a Puffadder just by looking at the venom, I think one should take other aspects into consideration such as population, geographical range and how often they come into contact with people and if you compare the Gaboon and the Puffadder then the Puffadder is clearly the more dangerous snake and one to look out for as the are responsible for more than 70% of all snake bites annually (with N.mossambica) How much is the Gaboon?

Look if you were to say that you are comparing the bite from a Puffadder to that of a Gaboon I would agree that yes the Gaboon's would be more severe if it was the same amount of venom injected, in exactly the same place under the same conditions.

But you said

''The rapid onset of symptoms as well as the fact that it has a cardiotoxin would make the Gaboon viper a far more dangerous snake''

And that is like saying that a Boomslang is more dangerous than a Snouted because of the venom?? the venom is more potent defiantly not that its more dangerous snake at all, I mean I don't know if you have ever handled some wild Puffadder's and wild Gaboon's but from my experience I tell you a Gaboon is like a cornsnake compared to a proper adult wild Puffadder.

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, was the information on the symptoms not accurate? I think Wiki is great source of info one should just read it first and compare to other research.
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Silvrav » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:21 pm

Lachesis mutus wrote:
As far as Wikipedia is concerned, was the information on the symptoms not accurate? I think Wiki is great source of info one should just read it first and compare to other research.


They might be now, thanks to millions of people fine tuning it, but keep in mind it is a wiki...anybody can edit/add/delete and therefore should not be used as a primary resource.
As BV stated, this is the reason it cannot be used at universities as reference.

I would rather read a primary resource and compare it to wiki for more info, as wiki has a lot of sources.

Comparing the gabooon to the puffie as above, or any snake, you need to compare what happens if you get bitten, as this is what the debate is about. Location, population is relevant but not to the extent that it will interfere with the danger factor of when you get bitten. It will only increase your chance of getting bitten....

It is like comparing a lion to a shark? which is more dangerous? it depends if you are a swimmer or a sprinter. The danger factor comes in if and when you get bitten.
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby Lachesis mutus » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:21 pm

Making a Puffadder a much more dangerous snake as you are more likely to be confronted with it than a Gaboon. come on..

Thats easy compare the the lion attacks to the shark attacks, relevant to population density, and you will find out which pose a bigger treat to humans thus making the more dangerous than the other.

Do remember that all snake bites are unpredictable and again depends on a variety of factors that can not be controlled and therefore it is impossible to predict, so in actual fact we can only say that a bite from a gaboon (if you are comparing the bite only and not the chance of getting bitten) is more likely to have more of an effect then that of a Puffadder, however it dose not at all make them a more dangerous animal than the Puffadder.

In my opinion I would say that not even a black mamba is more dangerous than a Puffadder as you are more likely to get hit by lightning then get bitting by n mamba.

i.e A black mamba bites you on the arm, Snouted bites you on you foot but intravenously, who do you think is more likely to cause death? The black mamba will be like a walk in the park.


That is exactly what i said just read it proper:

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, was the information on the symptoms not accurate? I think Wiki is great source of info one should just read it first and compare to other research.

Dont just accept what you read is correct.
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Re: Bitis gabonica venom potency?

Postby WW » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:36 pm

This is comparing apples and oranges, and merely serves to illustrate that arguing about "which is more dangerous" is pointless unless one agrees on what aspect of the danger one wants to focus on.

In terms of public health importance, the puff adder wins hands down, as lots of people get bitten, whereas Gaboon viper bites are rare due to its restricted range etc., at least in SA.

However, when it comes to the danger to a person who has just been bitten, it's a totally different issue - Gaboon's have a good track record of causing rapid shock and collapse, which would debilitate the bitten person far more rapidly than most puff adder bites, so chances are that you will be in more trouble after a Gaboon bite than after a puff adder bite.

Finally, LD50 values are also pretty pointless as a basis for argument. Published LD50 values represent the toxicity to WHITE MICE of THE PARTICULAR POOL OF VENOM used in the test - nothing more. Individual differences in venom composition mean that even within one population, one specimen can have a venom several times more lethal than another, and different populations of the same species can differ considerably in their average lethality. Arguing on the basis that one venom hasan LD50 that is 50% lower than that of another is entirely irrelevant to the assessment of the danger of a bite.
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