Deworming

This is for anything with regards to reptiles which is not species specific or over a broad band of reptiles. Be it husbandry, caging, etc. you can post it here.

Do you deworm your snakes?

Poll ended at Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:19 pm

No
10
63%
Once in a blue moon
3
19%
Yes, every snake i own gets dewormed
3
19%
 
Total votes : 16

Deworming

Postby Rob » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:19 pm

Deworming of snakes is not something I've ever thought to be too important until recently. I've probably dewormed my snakes 3 times in 15 years. Does anyone think its more important than most people think?

Anyone got any experiences with deworming? As in any visible results?

Did the snake excrete anything foreign?

Did it suddenly pick up condition?

Anybody damaged the trachea or any other organ whilst administering?

What do you use and have you ever lost a snake through overdosing?

Any tips for those who have never done it?

I dewormed some snakes this afternoon and was just curious what success or the opposite anybody else has experienced.

Kind regards
Rob Deans

Be more concerned with your character than your reputation. Your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are. ~Dale Carnegie
User avatar
Rob
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Durban

Postby Mitton » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:38 pm

My vote was no, but only b/c I have never done it or thought it was needed.
I have only been into keeping snakes for a short while now but this is a very interresting topic, thanks Rob.
User avatar
Mitton
Forum gatekeeper
 
Posts: 3206
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:32 pm
Location: Jhb

Postby Bushviper » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:36 pm

The only snakes that I have dewormed have been snakes that were caught in the wild and then left with a dealer before I got them. They get dewormed in quarantine.

I have seen some worms in certain species more especially the Rhino vipers and Fat tailed geckos. It also depends on how long the exporter has these animals before shipping. The smaller ones seem to have less worms.

There is no single dewormer that works for alll worms.

I would not routinely deworm snakes because South African snakes very seldom have worms to start with (dont ask me why) and I doubt that the exotics I have which are fed good quality rodents will transmit worms that will survive in the snakes body.
It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Those who are afraid to ask are ashamed of learning.
User avatar
Bushviper
Founder Member
 
Posts: 17358
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:02 am
Location: Pretoria

Postby Q Ball » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:42 pm

Good point BV
I like candlelight dinners, romantic walks on the beach and poking dead things with a stick.
User avatar
Q Ball
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:18 pm
Location: Kemptonpark

Postby Rob » Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:37 pm

I have always been told that snakes that eat geckos (ive always, probably mistakingly, presumed this to be Hemidactylus) may be prone to worms. Yes even indigenous snakes.

Anybody had any experience with this?

I'm hoping to hear from people who have had worm problems and have treated successfully for it.

Thanks for that BV. Were there any symptoms that prompted you or the 'quarantiner' to deworm those snakes (Rhinos) or was that merely a precaution?
Rob Deans

Be more concerned with your character than your reputation. Your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are. ~Dale Carnegie
User avatar
Rob
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Durban

Postby Bushviper » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:33 pm

Rob I imported the snakes and they have to undergo a 30 day quarantine before being allowed into the country. Some died and the autopsy found multiple worms in them which then got me to deworm them. Some of them had some type of lung worm which eventually killed them about 3 months later despite using 3 different types of dewormer.
It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Those who are afraid to ask are ashamed of learning.
User avatar
Bushviper
Founder Member
 
Posts: 17358
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:02 am
Location: Pretoria

Postby katesmith » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:29 pm

So the idea is dont deworm? Im reading a reptile husbandry book that says u should deworm twice a year with panacur 10% solution, 1ml per kg body mass. Im wondering how u would administer it, obviously orally, but how can u be sure you are doing it right. I dont suppose u could inject the dewormer into a food item (dead of course)
katesmith
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:00 am

Postby Rob » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:49 pm

I don't see why not. Provided the prey item can hold that amount of solution and it doesn't leak out.

I use a long tube which attaches to the end of a syringe. I suck up some water, then the deworming solution (in my case Flagyll), then slowly push it down the snakes throat til it reaches a certain mark on the tube, then slowly inject til the water has pushed all the solution into the stomach of the snake.
Rob Deans

Be more concerned with your character than your reputation. Your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are. ~Dale Carnegie
User avatar
Rob
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:49 pm
Location: Durban

Postby Pythonodipsas » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:25 pm

I only deworm if its needed. I use a combination of Flagyl (metrionidazole) to cover amoebas, flagellates and single celled organisms, and Panacur (Fenbendazole) which is a pretty safe 'broad spectrum' dewormer that has great safety margin and cover a lot of organisms from lungworm and hookworms to pinworms and wireworms. If you make a mistake and overdose a bit with both the above products it shouldn't have too much ill effect. Panacur wont help tapeworm though.

For those interested here are my thoughts on the whole thing:

From what I know all wild reptiles have worms and a myriad of symbiotic organisms that live in the reptile. Even CB reptiles should at least have stomach flora and gut bacteria that help them break down foodstuffs. Its when the organism is allowed to multiply that it becomes pathogenic or an 'infection' or 'infestation'. This usually happens in a stressfull situation like overcrowding or unhygenic husbandry practises, etc. The immune system gets compromised and cant handle and the organism takes over.

It has been proven that all humans are normally born with Candida albicans (Infectious Candida = Thrush), Staphylococcus aureus, Streptococcus spp (Strep throat = Strepsils) and many others BUT we live in harmony with these and Candida is part of our stomach flora and produces enzymes that assist in the breakdown of food. Every organism within us has its place and is there for a reason. We are walking ecosytems. The immune system keeps these things in check and a balance is created. It is when we bombard ourselves with stresses (chemical, mechanical, dietary, etc) and antibiotics and other threats to the immune system that we get strep throat or thrush or others.

So before I ramble on my point is that deworming should only be done in needed cases. It also helps to give Probiotics after a deworming to replace benefial stomach and intestinal life as in Acidophilis, Bifidobacteruim and Lactobacillis.

I can smell a debate coming...

.
User avatar
Pythonodipsas
SAReptiles Techie
 
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:32 pm
Location: Ramsgate, KZN

Postby katesmith » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:33 pm

i agree with above.. deworming every 6months would lead to rapid development of resistance of parasites. In fact for livestock must products are no longer effective and the pharmaceutical companies and at the end of a golden era..
katesmith
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:00 am

Postby Pythonodipsas » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:53 pm

Yup and did you know that medical school curriculums are designed and dicatated by the pharmaceutical industry! Hmmm.

Doctors are trained/brainwashed to prescribe this or that to relieve your symptoms so you keep coming back for more relief. If they gave you something that would cure you the pharmaceutical industry would crumble.

Now thats sickening! :)
`
If you wanna find out what's behind these cold eyes, you'll just have to claw your way through this disguise.
Roger Waters & David Gilmour - 1979
User avatar
Pythonodipsas
SAReptiles Techie
 
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:32 pm
Location: Ramsgate, KZN

Postby katesmith » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:59 pm

hmm.. i wouldn't go that far! but to a large extent i agree. But inany case back to the topic... should you then not deworm until your snake it loosing condition?
katesmith
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:00 am

Postby Pythonodipsas » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:08 pm

Ok I'm rambling...and sure if your snake is losing condition get a vet to check it or its fecal sample and take the neccesary precations/medications.

As you read in that book many people will regularly deworm as a prophylactic. I dont agree! But each to his own.
`
If you wanna find out what's behind these cold eyes, you'll just have to claw your way through this disguise.
Roger Waters & David Gilmour - 1979
User avatar
Pythonodipsas
SAReptiles Techie
 
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:32 pm
Location: Ramsgate, KZN

Postby horridus » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:38 am

OK, I seem to be against the popular vote here,

But I deworm everything I get, twice

I am talking about wild caught imports, not animals that i get from other people

I figure this. No matter how quickly an animal comes into your collection, there is a transition period. Stress=anorexia=condition loss=immunocompramization=weight lose=stress=etc etc.

And, even the best shipping methods disrupt an animals life style, even CB animals. I deworm all my wc imports and suspicious CB animals. Flagyl (metronidazole) is not only antiprotozoal,antiparasitic, it is also and appetite stimulant! as for it being a carcinogen, i quote
"Adverse effects
Common adverse drug reactions (≥1% of patients) associated with systemic metronidazole therapy include: nausea, diarrhoea, and/or metallic taste. Intravenous administration is commonly associated with thrombophlebitis. Infrequent adverse effects include: hypersensitivity reactions (rash, itch, flushing, fever), headache, dizziness, vomiting, glossitis, stomatitis, dark urine, and/or paraesthesia.[1]

High doses and/or long-term systemic treatment with metronidazole is associated with the development of furry black tongue, leukopenia, neutropenia, increased risk of peripheral neuropathy and/or CNS toxicity.[1]

Metronidazole is listed by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as a potential human carcinogen. Although some of the testing methods have been questioned, it has been shown to cause cancer in experimental animals.[3] Nevertheless, it appears to have a fairly low potential for cancer risk and under most circumstances the benefits of treatment outweighs the risk.

Common adverse drug reactions associated with topical metronidazole therapy include local redness, dryness, and/or skin irritation; and eye watering (if applied near eyes).[1]"

So, while i am against antibiotics for no reason, antiprotozoals and antiparasitics are OK, and flagyl is safe in smaller doses, the agreed dose for panacure and flagyl is now 50mg/kg, down from 100-150mg/kg. And yes, flagyl is an antibiotic.. but it is also much more than that.

One famous researcher deworms animals out in the field when he catches them, and he says that increases the mean survival number and time greatly. Part of this is because it can take as long as 2 weeks to get them back to the lab.

There is resistance to drugs all over, its called evolution, in the grander scheme of this, its bad, but for that individual animal,not getting drugs can be life or death. If you hold back on drugs for a single animal, you may benefit the whole resistance swing a bit, but that animal is going to die.

Now, thats my opinion, and I see a lot more imported, dehydrated, heavily parasitized animals than you guys do, so I am making a blanket statement, but the general understanding in the states is, if you cant do a fecal, deworm, and if the animal gets better, we have to assume that parasites where the problem.


these are just my thoughts and observations

don
User avatar
horridus
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:01 pm

Postby Bra_joe » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:18 pm

well i dont do it my self but if it workes dont stop nou
Bra_joe
SA Reptiles Member
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:39 pm

Next

Return to General Reptile Keeping

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron