Green water snake

[BushSnake]

Nice! Do any of you have close-up photos showing the subcaudals and ventrals of both these species?

[Fooble]

Bush snake i don't unfortunately.
I do come across the Philothamnus natalensis natalensis far more regularly then the Philothamnus hoplogaster.
Will get some close ups when i find one next.

[dazz]

Very nice dk!what was the attitude on this little guy like?

[Rob]

Fooble yours looks like hoplogaster to me.

[Fooble]

Upon first inspection i thought it was hoplogaster myself.
But to my knowledge the pupils of these two snakes do they not differ?

[Fooble]

Another sadly unfocused!

P.hoplogaster


P.natalensis



From A Complete Guide to the Snakes of Southern Africa, Second Edition, by Johan Marais, Struik publishers, 2004. ( Don't forget proper referencing when posting articles such as this one!) -BushSnake

The more i look at the snake the more im confused.
I think its based on the fact the area i found the snake i always find the P.natalensis.

Mmm!

[BushSnake]

Isn't the P.natalensis from Durban area actually P.natalensis occidentalis, which also does not have keeled subcaudals? You'll have to do a subcaudal scale count to make sure next time.... and good luck because these snakes are not known for sitting still! Put it in a clear plastic container and photograph the the scales when the snake is lying flat and then get counting (and don't forget to post pics).

[Fooble]

Ah sorry for not referencing.
Will do i'm almost sure i can grab another one this weekend. Strangely enough the location i found the one pictured
the previous time i have been there i find one every time almost 2-3meters apart under the same structures.

I wasn't aware of the P.natalensis occidentalis, i know about the "Eastern Natal green snake" as well as the Western Natal green snake but they have slightly different distributions.

Well attempt that shot for the subcaudal count

[BushSnake]

P.natalensis occidentalis = western Natal green snake
P.natalensis natalensis = eastern Natal green snake

These are just sub-species, and different sub-species cannot be found in one location. I am not 100% where the southern limit for P.n.natalensis is, but I know the ones from around about Ballito are considered very interesting. So I can only guess that that is roughly where the border lies...

[Rob]

Studies are currently underway and its presumed for now that Toti is where they change.

[Mongoose]

Fooble, that is a Green water snake - It does not have keeled ventrals.

[Scavenger]

Awesome photos Dean sounds like you guys have had some nice success . Nice pics T, was quite a chilled little snake let me know when you working again, need to make a little visit.

[Fooble]

So Scavenger it appears it "is" a green water?
Dude ill be at work Tomorrow.

[BushSnake]

Mongoose, but neither does P.natalensis occidentalis! So if we assume the southern border between the two sub-species of Natal green snakes lies at Toti, and this one comes from Durban (i.e. further north), then yes it is a green water snake. If however you are still in the P.natalensis occidentalis range, then we cannot make any conclusions until Fooble gets a subcaudal count...

[Mongoose]

P.n.occidentalis is noticeably different, even by color. The eye is Much darker (especially when small such as this one) and it would have a lot of black and turquoise in it.

In the last pic, you can't see any keeled subcauduls neither.. Although you can't see that clearly though.